Standing Up and Saying, ‘This Is Wrong.’
HRC Talks with Kathleen Moltz and Dahlia Schwartz
In November 2004, voters in Michigan passed an amendment to their state constitution that defined marriage as between a man and a woman. Proponents of the amendment had said it wouldn’t affect the health insurance benefits some same-sex couples already received, but in March 2005, the Michigan attorney general announced that because of the amendment, state and local governments could not longer offer same-sex domestic partner benefits to their employees.
Michigan couple Kathleen Moltz and Dahlia Schwartz wondered what it would mean for their family. Moltz, who worked as a doctor at a state university, depended on her domestic partner benefits to support Schwartz and their two children. They joined a lawsuit organized by the American Civil Liberties Union to find out what the constitutional amendment really meant for Michigan families.
In April 2005, Moltz, Schwartz, their two children and one set of grandparents traveled to Washington, D.C. Moltz testified before a congressional subcommittee against the proposed anti-gay federal Marriage Protection Amendment — since, after all, she’d seen firsthand the impact such an amendment can have on an ordinary family.
While they were in town, the family also sat down for a chat with HRC about why they had decided to take this stand.
Taking a Stand for Families
HRC: First of all, would you like to introduce your family?
Dahlia: I’m Dahlia Schwartz. This is Kathleen Moltz. This is Aliana, who is a little shy at the moment, and this is Itamar, and they are called Itai and Ayla for short.
HRC: Nice to meet you. And how old are you two?
Aliana: Four and three-quarters!
Kathleen: Itai, do you remember how old you are? You’re two.
HRC: So why are you all here in Washington today?
Dahlia: We’re here today because Michigan passed a constitutional amendment defining marriage as the union of one man and one woman. And although the proponents of the amendment kept insisting that it was only about a definition and it would have no impact on benefits for anybody, as soon as the amendment passed people began making moves to take away domestic partner benefits in the state. And the latest round of those efforts seemed to be directed at state employees, of which Kathleen is one. So we decided to get involved in an ACLU lawsuit against the governor to get some declaratory relief on whether the amendment necessitates withdrawing benefits from state employees. And that’s pretty much why we want to fight any efforts to pass similar amendments, certainly at a national level. Do you have anything to add to that, Kathy?
Kathleen: We’re here because this is an important issue. We’re not people who would generally come before cameras and senators and make trips away from home, but this issue is so critical. Health insurance is so necessary in today’s society, and the concept that hardworking American families like ours can be deprived of the same benefits that their co-workers are given because of the potential national amendment is really shocking and disturbing.
HRC: And you’re testifying before the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on the Constitution today. Have you ever testified before Congress before?
Kathleen: No. (Laughs) I’ve never met a senator before. I’ve been to Washington before as a tourist and that would be about it. But no, I’ve never testified on any issue of this sort. But, perhaps because of my lack of experience, I think it’s important that regular folks, real Americans, come and talk to lawmakers about how this affects our lives. This is isn’t about abstract concepts — this is about real people.
One Family's Story
HRC: Could you tell us your family’s story?
Kathleen: Sure. Dahlia and I have actually known each other since —
Dahlia: Since childhood.
Kathleen: Since childhood.
Dahlia: But we got together about 15 years ago.
Kathleen: And when we did, we had the support of our families, and we had a traditional Jewish wedding in 1996 with all the trimmings: the chupah, the Ketubah, the breaking of the glass, the exchange of an article of value, the circling of the brides, the Klezmer band, the whole thing. And then we moved to Massachusetts and decided we wanted to start our family. I carried Aliana and —
Dahlia: I carried Itai. And we both worked in Massachusetts, although I worked in New Hampshire across the border, and we realized we really needed more time with the kids. It was not good for us as a family to have two full-time working parents. And so we started looking for a position that would allow us to stay home. And a position became available in Michigan, which was wonderful because not only would it allow us to meet our goal, but it would allow us to move near family and near grandparents. And as part of negotiating for that position Kathleen made very, very certain that not only would I be covered, but the kids would be covered, and future children of either of us would be covered. Because the whole move — the intention of the whole thing was to allow one of us to be able to stay at home. And Wayne State University was really wonderful about it; they really wanted to make sure our needs were met. Do you want to pick it up from there?
Kathleen: I started work; the job has been wonderful. Dahlia staying home with our kids has been amazingly wonderful for our family in more ways than we can possibly identify. Our children are happier and more relaxed people. They’re more inquisitive, more curious. They’re having time to look at the world around them and see all the wonderful things involved, and ask questions and do projects and play with other kids in ways that were really limited when you have two people working outside the home and a life to still run. For our general life, it is of course wonderful that Dahlia can take care of the rest of the daily activities that need to be taken care of. And I can’t imagine having to go back to two full-time working parents and raising our family in day care and substitutes. We know that not everybody has the opportunity or the ability to make the kinds of adjustments to budgets, to finances, to finding a job where one parent can stay home. We were very lucky that we were able to find a way to do that.
An Uncertain Future
Kathleen: But then in Michigan, Proposal 2 started, and the rhetoric around that — it talked about protecting families, and the need to protect marriage. And the proponents of Proposal 2 spent a great deal of time denying that this would have any effect on employment or health care benefits — until the day after.
Dahlia: And then they moved to amend a suit that was already going in the Ann Arbor school district to say, “Now that Proposal 2 has passed, states shouldn’t be able to offer domestic partner benefits.” And the attorney general issued an opinion to the same effect. Then the governor said that because benefits were under a cloud, they couldn’t be part of the new union contracts with the state.
Kathleen: Which had already been negotiated. And it just simply hadn’t been enacted at that point.
Dahlia: And so a lot of people are very worried about what’s going to happen. And the ACLU contacted us to really just get a clarification — you know: Are our benefits going to disappear suddenly, or should we start planning for that? Or is the amendment going to be interpreted as the voters voted on it? Which was that it had nothing to do with getting rid of legal protections and benefits for gays and lesbians and their families
HRC: So you two are sort of in limbo right now, waiting to see what impact this amendment is actually going to have on your lives.
Dahlia: That’s right.
Kathleen: We don’t know. We don’t have any good way of trying to make a plan. We don’t know whether we are going to have to change our entire lives, and when that might happen, or whether it would only happen on recognition of a contract, or whether it would only happen when some court decides to make a decision. It’s nerve-wracking.
Dahlia: It is. You know, we have lost sleep over it, certainly.
HRC: Do you know how much of a financial impact it would have on you if you did wind up losing the benefits that you get through the university?
Kathleen: Health insurance is very expensive, and an individual private health insurance policy is even more so. Dahlia has a baseline medical problem, which makes her insurance rate likely to be higher than average. We don’t have any sense of how much, or how that would possibly fit into the budget we’ve set up so we can keep living as a one-working-parent family.
Dahlia: And I think long-term, it would not work for us to pay for health insurance out of pocket. So I don’t know what we would do.
HRC: I guess most families don’t have to take that into account when they’re planning their family budget. They don’t have to worry about whether the Constitution is going to change.
Dahlia: Exactly.
Kathleen: That’s not something you wake up in the morning and say, “Hmm what would I do if —”
Dahlia: “All the voters decided I couldn’t have health insurance today.”
Everyday Activists
HRC: So you got involved in the ACLU’s lawsuit after they heard about your story?
Dahlia & Kathleen: Yes.
Kathleen: And so we spent a lot of time thinking about it and discussing it. I think I said before, we’re not people who run out and make lawsuits. When we moved to Michigan we understood that even though we had a civil marriage in Massachusetts, there wasn’t any expectation that that would be recognized in Michigan.
Dahlia: I mean, we knew that we would be an ideal test case, if it was our purpose in life to be a test case. But our purpose in life was really to raise our kids and live our lives.
Kathleen: Live and grow old together. We had a lot of talking on whether we were going to sign on for the lawsuit. And we decided that in the end, however uncomfortable being involved in litigation makes us — it’s that important that people stand up and say, “This is wrong.”
Dahlia: We’re Jewish, and we take it really seriously. We looked to some Jewish sources, and I think the one that got both of us was the popular quote, “Justice, justice you shall pursue.” And it’s considered very important to speak up when you feel like an injustice is being done. I think that’s what swayed us in the end.
HRC: You’re testifying before Congress against the federal marriage amendment. Why is the amendment so bad? How would it affect families like yours?
Kathleen: Well, one of the big problems with the Michigan amendment is its ambiguity. And the federal marriage amendment has similar ambiguities in it. Leaving, of course, the fear that when, or if, passed with those ambiguities, such an amendment would put at risk not just people in Michigan, but people all over the nation who receive health care benefits through their employer through domestic partner benefits.
Dahlia: I mean, I think we are basically afraid that just like in Michigan, the proponents of an amendment like that will convince everybody that it’s just about some abstract concept, and nobody’s going to be harmed. And then as soon as it’s passed they’ll start pushing to actually harm families. And we don’t want to see that happen.
Real Family Values
HRC: Is there anything you would like to say to the people who support these amendments?
Dahlia: Stable, loving families are always a good thing. And unsupported, struggling families are always a bad thing. And to force more burdens onto families is a horrible thing to do. It’s unnecessary, and there is so much more to be done to help families right now — rather than throwing money at trying to take away health benefits from a fairly small number of families.
HRC: How did you feel after the election in November?
Kathleen: Devastated. In shock. I had to go to work the next day. I had a clinic, and I spent a good portion of the day wandering around wondering which of the people I was seeing — I was taking care of, I was spending time and energy to help — didn’t think I had a right to be recognized legally. Didn’t think I had a right to the protections of the law. Which neighbors voted, which people in which areas voted. It was shock for over a week.
Dahlia: And that being said, we really don’t know people that voted for the amendment. It’s as if everybody that gets to know a gay family didn’t vote for it. So in our community we really don’t know anybody that voted for the amendment. And I think if other people get to know families like us, maybe they wouldn’t be voting that way.
HRC: I read that you took you daughter with you to the polls. How do your children feel about all this?
Kathleen: I think that Aliana has some sense that there are problems happening. When we went to the polls, you know, we talk about what are we voting for, and why do we vote, and how do things work in America. She’s four, but kids learn quickly.
Dahlia: We explained our vote for president, and why we voted in the way that we voted, and the fact that whatever happened, in four years there would be another vote. And we explained that this was also an important issue: that there were some people that wanted to say that two women can’t be parents, and two men can’t be parents, and that our family couldn’t be a family. And we told her, obviously, it’s silly — because we don’t want our kids to worry about this. And we’re really trying to downplay this to the extent that we can. And we said that, but we wanted to convince people otherwise. When the amendment passed, we were all watching the election returns like everybody else in the country that day, and she said, “What happened to Proposal 2?” And she knew that it was called Proposal 2. I told her that it passed and she said, “Does that mean we have to split up?” It was very sad. And I think that the only saving grace of that day was — from nowhere, we live in suburbia — two deer walked into our backyard. It was amazing, and we all got enamored of sort of that magical moment, and forgot for a few minutes. But it was just — people say, “How do we explain to kids that someone has two moms?” And to me, that’s an easy answer: “All families are a little bit different. Some families have four grandparents, some have two. But what makes a family is love.” More important to me is: How do I explain to my kids that other people don’t view them as equal? I haven’t found an answer for that yet.
HRC: Do you have any words of advice for HRC and the GLBT community in the fight ahead?
Kathleen: I think it’s important to continue getting stories out. To continue demystifying to whole concept that gay families are different, somehow, than other families. I think it’s important that we reclaim the discussion on a number of different levels — that this is not an abstract topic. This is not some nebulous abstract concept. That marriage is a real, live, living thing that occurs between two people. Not between people and their senators.
Dahlia: Nothing against our senators, of course.
Kathleen: Right — but they are not welcome in our marriage. Marriage has always been a religious thing, as well, and each religion has the right and the opportunity to decide for itself what it considers sacred for marriage. I think we need to reclaim some of that dialogue, and the fact that this is a country where many different religions coexist.
Dahlia: And a lot of them recognize the rights of gays and lesbians — and to ignore them is to have the state sponsor religion. Which is obviously not OK.
Kathleen: And is a bigger change to the Constitution than, I think, most anybody would be interested in.
Dahlia: You know, you reminded me when you said any advice or strategy — before the election I was thinking, I wish we could get families like ours, and just assign everybody a senator or a congressperson and start writing them letters as if they’re a family member. “Here’s the kids, here’s what they’re doing today, here’s what’s new with our family. We’re having a hard time. So-and-so is sick.” Just because I felt like they really — the people who are making these decisions need to know that we are real people. And I couldn’t figure out how to get that across other than sort of writing a thousand “Please vote ‘No’ on this” letters that just get you a form letter back. I feel like the big thing is to get the people here in the capital and around the country to understand that we’re just like them. We’re trying to pay the bills. We have no idea how we are going to pay for our kids’ college.
Kathleen: We do the laundry and fold it and put it away, just like everyone else. We get weeds in our garden.
Dahlia: When we finally get our garden planted. (Laughs) But you know, we just want to be able to live that way. I think that’s an important message.